In this episode, Robert Mixon interviews Bill Carpenter, CEO of the Rochester Genessee Regional Transportation Authority, on one of the most important Big Six® principles — Listening. In an environment where listening is subordinated to talking, initiative is stifled. The best leaders and teams know how to listen and to understand, more than just to be understood. Bill and Robert discuss different techniques that will turn you into a better listener.
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Podcast Episode 3: How a Leader Should Listen – Interview with Bill Carpenter, CEO of the Rochester Genessee Regional Transportation Authority
Robert Mixon:
Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to the third in our series of “The Journey With No Summit,” the Level Five podcast series. And today we’re going to focus on the Big Six principle ‘Listen.’
To help us in that journey, we’re privileged to have with today, Mr. Bill Carpenter, who is the CEO of the Rochester Genesee Regional Transportation Authority. And welcome, Bill.
Bill Carpenter:
Hey, Robert, thanks very much for the invitation. Glad to be here.
Robert Mixon:
Well, you know, Bill, obviously, as a leader, you’ve been on a journey, your organization here in western New York, you oversee the public transportation for an eight-county area of 1.2 million people and more than 18 million customers annually. And I think your workforce is about a thousand. Is that correct?
Bill Carpenter:
Just over 900 employees serving mobility throughout the eight-county region. That’s right.
Robert Mixon:
Well, you’ve certainly been in the midst of transformation, as well as transportation. Is that fair?
Bill Carpenter:
That’s fair. We’re reimagining our system here in Monroe County, which is where Rochester, New York is the county seat. We’ve got a system that 40 years ago worked well.
And what we’ve done is made minor changes to it over the last 40 years. But in the last two years, we’ve gone out to the community, listened to what they want, what they need, what we’re capable of doing. And we’ve now got a design that we’ll implement about a year from now to change how public transportation and mobility is delivered in our community.
Robert Mixon:
Terrific. Terrific. And I’ve been privileged to know you now for almost two years and watch some of this journey unfold as a senior leader guiding an organization, complex organization, with years of history, which is a good news and a bad news story sometimes, right?
Bill Carpenter:
That’s right. The work of making sure that we know exactly what we’re trying to do and getting clarity around that, getting a singular focus around that end state, and then to aligning our executive team and our leadership team around that azimuth that I heard about in your last podcast and we heard about in the training. Really helped align the organization.
I think that’s really supported us with ending up with a great recommendation that our board just recently unanimously approved.
Robert Mixon:
Congratulations, Bill. Just a heck of an accomplishment that you and your team have put together. But looking back on your personal leadership journey, Bill, where do you think your strengths and weaknesses are as a listening leader?
Bill Carpenter:
You know, very early in my career, I had someone explain to me that I was mediocre when it came to listening skills. And I said, “but I’m a great listener. I hear what people have to say.”
And the person said, “unless the person who’s speaking knows that you’ve heard them, then you haven’t listened well.” And so, what I’ve found over time is by nature, I’m collaborative. I really want to hear what the other person has to say.
I can be compassionate, sympathetic, empathetic, unless I get distracted, unless the urgent and the important is pressed down. And I love distractions.
Robert Mixon:
So you think your strengths now are increasing in terms of that empathetic listening?
Bill Carpenter:
That there’s a number of habits I’ve developed to make sure I’ve got the focus during the time that we’re together and just really appreciating the energy that it takes to be an empathetic listener. And when someone asks for time with me to look at my calendar, not just that we’ve got time to talk, but I’ve got the energy to really engage in the conversation. Those things have really improved my game.
Robert Mixon:
It’s hard sometimes, though, isn’t it, to focus?
Bill Carpenter:
As a CEO, there are hundreds of things that can have your focus. But the most important thing, when there’s someone sitting across from you, whether it’s a direct report in a one-on-one setting, a customer, a stakeholder in the community, they need to know you’ve given them your full focus.
When you can do that and then back that up with a backbrief so that they know not only did they feel as though I was paying attention, but it’s confirmed that I’ve heard what they’ve had to say, really get high points from the speaker that, okay, you’ve got it. And we had over 150 meetings with the community as part of this project we’ve just done. And I think the end result, the unanimous support, shows we really did listen well throughout the process.
Robert Mixon:
So, what do you think your biggest challenge is in creating a listening culture, not only in Bill Carpenter, but in the team that you lead, your executive team, your organizational team, your constituency, right? You’ve got stakeholders across the community and the political environment. How do you nurture a listening culture in that diverse audience?
Bill Carpenter:
Well, we’ve got an organization. I’ve been CEO over seven years, and I inherited a high-performing organization based on a command and control culture. The team of leaders had lots of experience with what I learned to be critical listening, where as people talked about the problem, it was, hey, has a goal been met or not been met?
If there’s a gap, why didn’t you meet it? Not listening, to… do you have the resources you need? Am I understanding the problem correctly?
It was more, hey, if you didn’t hit it, what went wrong?
In moving to empathetic listening, the team needs to know the desired end state. For us, our mission statement reads, we partner with the communities we serve to provide safe and sustainable mobility, offering better access, frequency, and reliability.
And we break that down into different elements for the different departments. So, the conversation is often about the necessary resources to achieve that end state. It’s not, did you hit the goal or not?
But I know what the end state is, and I’m not able to achieve it with the resources I have. The listening style is proactive and affirming. Empathetic is compared to being critical.
The team members need to feel, to know that it’s safe to discuss gaps in progress. It takes time and it takes skill development. It takes modeling that type of empathetic listening.
Was talking recently about another transit agency that had asked what we had done in our project to be so successful. And we talked about having over 150 meetings with the community. And as I left, I said, it’s not enough to have the meetings.
The people need to know that they’ve been heard.
And then your plan has to reflect the problems that they identify.
You need to address those.
It’s not just enough to go out and talk. You have to go out and listen and then do a handshake, whether again, it’s one-on-one with a direct report up here or 50 or 75 people in a town hall meeting. They need to know they’ve been heard and that you repeat back what they’re saying.
And then you adjust off of what you’ve heard. You adjust your plans to collaborate and come up with a better outcome than what you had when everyone walked in the room.
Robert Mixon:
What about with your senior executives? How have you been working with them to improve their listening skills?
Bill Carpenter:
Particularly with the senior executives, I’d say there’s two things, a skill development that I mentioned. And we have worked with Level Five Associates and some specific skill development that you and your team have brought to our table. But in my one-on-ones, it’s I’m modeling successful listening skills — or not.
And I’ve asked them, hold me accountable. As part of my personal leadership philosophy, I tell them my goal is to be a good listener. And my expectation is if I’m falling short, if I’ve got the computer on, if I’m calling my assistant during the meeting, call me out.
And I’m okay with calling them out if they don’t call me out. Hey, we’re trying to achieve a high standard here. We’re trying to be as productive as possible.
So you need to hold me accountable. I need to model the right behavior. So let’s achieve the goal we’re all working towards.
Robert Mixon:
So how do you measure their progress?
Bill Carpenter:
That’s a great question. As far as a listener goes, they have one member of the executive team who I would say is quieter than the rest.
And I think my executive team would know who I’m talking about. But if he doesn’t backbrief with me, I’ll ask him to backbrief. And it’s astounding the clarity with which he’s understood our conversation.
And yet, without that backbrief, I’m not sure he’s heard at all. And again, the backbrief with some others, the conversation has been heard, but people have begun to think, ‘okay, so if that’s a problem, here’s a solution I’m going to begin to work on.’ I said, well, ‘I just want to make sure we understand the problem together.’
And as they do their backbrief, they’re already describing the solution rather than what’s been discussed. So it’s an iterative process, constant working with each other and watching really the whole team improve as a result.
Robert Mixon:
Okay. So that one-on-one focus for you has been powerful.
Bill Carpenter:
Very powerful.
Robert Mixon:
And the preparation going into the one-on-ones, right?
Bill Carpenter:
I think to be a good listener, you’ve got to have some set questions you want to ask. It’s very easy to have your day be interrupted, the pattern, a wonderful calendar, say, well, I’m prepared for this meeting and to find there’s a fire to be put out, someone to be congratulated, a celebration to attend. And you walk in, if you’ve not got your notes ahead of time, if you don’t have your format ahead of time, it’s easy to be ineffective in that initial period of time.
Whereas if you can have the outline, be asking, hey, what’s your biggest problem that you want to focus on this week? Some follow-up questions from the prior meeting that you’ve highlighted. So you already have those notes when you get together.
That really makes the time more productive. And people look forward to knowing this is going to be a productive time as opposed to ineffective time.
Robert Mixon:
Good, Bill. Thanks. Can you give us an example of someone that you admire and respect as a listener and why?
Bill Carpenter:
You know, there was a former county executive, Maggie Brooks, who I had the good privilege to work for. She had been in broadcasting, then got into politics and was the first woman elected county executive. And after three terms, she was term limited.
I worked for her during her first term, the first four years. She always gave her full attention. And I don’t know if it was her reporter background, just natural skills, but she listened to tone, to body language.
You felt like she captured all of you as she was listening to you. And at the end of the time, you always had a commitment from her as to what she was able to do. And at times that meant, “Bill, do I understand this to be what you’re looking for? There isn’t anything I can do about that.” Or, “thanks so much for bringing that to my attention. We’re going to find a way to work together on that.”
And when she retired, I had the good fortune of her being able to work at the Rochester Genesee Regional Transportation Authority for the last several years until her recent retirement. And she modeled great listening skills in our regular staff meetings with her team, and then certainly out in the community where anyone that she met with, felt that our organization had given that stakeholder our full attention with a commitment. If there was something we could do to solve their problem, it would be done.
She’s just a world-class, high-water mark listener.
It was easy for her to come to mind.
Robert Mixon:
And you think that her listening skills enabled a higher degree of respect?
Bill Carpenter:
You know, someone said at one time, you know, I think the greatest skill that she brought to our organization was that anyone in town would take her phone call. And what I take that to mean is any conversation that she had had through her time as county executive, as a reporter, she had earned the respect of everyone that she spoke to. And so there’s a lot of ongoing behavior in how people responded to her … and how people right now miss her in the organization, because she really was perceptive in what the problems were that needed to be addressed, in the collaborative way in which they could be solved.
Robert Mixon:
Thanks. Thanks, Bill. I mean, I had the privilege of knowing Maggie too, not as well as you, but I certainly would echo some of your comments about her ability to focus, to be in the moment, and to make you feel like you were the only person in the room.
I just think it’s a wonderful skill of leadership.
What advice would you give other executives in developing a corp of leaders who actively work at listening to understand versus listening to reply?
Bill Carpenter:
You know, I mentioned earlier, there’s some simple things that you can do. You know, one of them, put your phone in the drawer, turn the computer monitor off, tell the assistant you’re not to be disturbed. Some of the easy distractions, and we all see it, whether it’s at the store, the traffic light, people walking down the street, everyone wants to maximize a moment.
And when there’s a pregnant pause in the conversation, it’s very easy if your phone is there, lights up when you get an email to have your eyes dart to the phone. And what you’re saying to the person you’re supposed to be listening to is that you don’t have my full attention.
So we put those things away.
And then we ask clarifying questions. You know, “you’re talking about a shortage of resources… tell me more about that.”
“Is it because the time constraint is too tight? Or even with more time, you wouldn’t be able to achieve it. But what do you think is the fundamental issue?”
And then for me, one of my guiding principles is: I can’t begin to talk about a solution until the backbrief is done. So before I say, well, you know, here’s what we’re going to do, I need to say, if I’ve understood you correctly, “is this what your experience is? Is this what your observation is?”
“Is this what you want me to know?”
And to get that backbrief done before we talk about solutions. So the outcome of the initial conversation is all about making sure the other person has been understood.
That keeps it empathetic. It keeps it focused on understanding. And one of the things I learned, you know, eight or 10 years ago, is how much of the brain gets engaged when you describe a problem.
And all of us have had this experience. We walk into our boss’s office with a problem. And in describing the problem, an answer becomes readily apparent.
And so if you’ve done a good job just getting the person to clarify the question, often the solution becomes self-evident to the individual. So again, focus on making sure they’ve been understood, that you’ve heard their body language, that you’ve heard their tone of voice. Are they getting frustrated with this?
Are they excited?
Share that, not just the words that you’ve heard, but the tone and body language that you’ve picked up as well. You’ll find them to be fully engaged and be looking forward to the next time they get together with you.
Robert Mixon:
Okay. Well, thanks, Bill. What else would you like to share with the audience about your leadership style?
What’s been most effective in your journey, in your career?
Bill Carpenter:
One of my observations about my leadership style is, throughout my career, is people get to know me. They trust me. They want to do business with me. That they have the sense that I have their best interests.
And I think the foundation for that is the top value in my personal leadership philosophy is integrity. I want to do the right thing. I want to do the right thing when nobody’s looking.
I want to do the right thing when no one will care. And I think people pick up on that.
And they’re willing to begin to attach themselves to someone that has integrity as a core value, that if I put my lot in with this person, do I need to worry about counting fingers after a handshake, or my wallet after a transaction?
But the next step is, my personal mission statement is: “to help improve the people and systems I care about so that individuals and the communities around me achieve more.”
And as you work with me, I think my team knows that my win is when the team wins, and it’s when the community is well served. And so, putting together a team that’s looking to improve the community collectively, being led by someone whose core mission is to improve the individuals in the community as best as I can, really has put together a team that I would say is second to none in public transit, really would not be where I am in public transit without the folks that have come together and said, ‘let’s go on that journey together with you, Bill.’
Robert Mixon:
Okay. Well, thanks very much, Bill. What else would you like to talk about today as we’re having this conversation?
Are there other tools that you think executives can put in their toolbox to continue to create this culture of caring?
Bill Carpenter:
I think one of the elements about leadership, somewhere along the way, each leader needs to understand someone else’s behavior is just someone else’s behavior. Too often as a leader, you see someone and they say, why are they doing that to me? And to the extent that as a leader, you can begin to just understand each person comes from their own life experiences, that they have their way of solving problems.
And when you can allow them the freedom to be their best selves, that not everything is a challenge to the leader, that they just have a different way of achieving that end state and providing a clear end state so everyone knows what success looks like. Allows others to be their best selves. And when you can allow them to do that, another leader I admire said, well, ‘the stars begin to align.’
And as you get the stars to align, well, then bigger goals are possible. People feel ‘I don’t have to do it Bill’s way. I can do it my way.’
And as I allow them to be the best leader they can be, their teams are led by great leaders.
And then it’s a matter of ‘leaders leading leaders, who are creating other leaders’ instead of a leader managing people to accomplish some tasks. And when you make that fundamental change of everyone leading their own area to get to a desired end state that they all understand, amazing, amazing things can be accomplished.
Robert Mixon:
That’s great Bill. I appreciate your insights very much. And I think the audience will echo some of that appreciation because the concept of servant leadership that I think you’re describing is about us.
One of my favorite colleagues or people I admire is General Stan McChrystal, United States Army retired. He’s written some great books. So, “Team of Teams” is one of my favorites.
And there he talks about executive leadership being more of a gardener than a chess master.
And I think when you’re talking about creating a listening culture, you’re talking about becoming a gardener more than a chess master, then more than moving the pieces on the board, you’re nurturing the seeds of leadership growth.
Bill Carpenter:
Really allowing everyone whatever their seed is to flourish as best they can. Make sure you get the weeds out of the way, but allow each to flourish in their own fields. Celebrate their accomplishments.
I like what he had to say very much.
Robert Mixon:
Great Bill. Well, it’s great having you all here today as part of the podcast program. I’ve certainly learned a lot and I hope the folks in our audience have learned a lot.
You know, we’re going to continue our journey together with the podcast series.
I’m pleased to announce that we’ve got several other senior executives who graciously agreed to come on the podcast and talk about each of the Big Six principles and some of their lessons learned. Next time, we’ll be talking about ‘trust and empower,’ another of the Big Six principles.
But I think Bill, you’ve contributed tremendously to all of our learning journey progress today.
And I want to thank everyone for joining us and look forward to the next podcast.
And Bill, certainly wish you and the Rochester-Genesee Regional Transportation Authority all the best in your reimagined efforts, which I think will serve all of us in the community more effectively in a caring and listening way in getting them the support they need to enrich their lives.
Thanks, Bill.
Bill Carpenter:
Thank you, Robert.
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